Unlocking the Strategic Power of Empathy at Work with Jordan Birnbaum

Jordan:

The more you can understand what your leader is experiencing, the better you’ll know what they value, what they want to hear, and what they might find annoying or distracting. The first thing you want to do is spend time imagining what your leader is going through so you can think strategically about the best way to engage with them.

Gillian:

Welcome to Future Works. This is a podcast dedicated to conversations about innovation in the workplace. I’ll be sharing research, inspiration, insights into what we’re building at Aspects, and what we’re learning along the way. We’re diving into conversations with leaders, scrutinizing case studies, celebrating wins, exploring theories and psychology, and uncovering what it takes to invent and reinvent solutions in the workforce industry. I’m Gillian.

Michelle:

And I’m Michelle. We’re your hosts, here to dive into candid conversations about what’s happening in the world of work—and how, frankly, we all need it to be better.

As a parent of three small girls, I know a lot about animated films. Here’s some news: Inside Out 2 has become the highest-grossing animated film and, of course, it’s all about emotions.

I find it ironic that it overtook the Frozen franchise, which is all about hiding your emotions. That might just be the perfect metaphor for how work is shifting too. The days of leaving your humanity at the door are gone.

Now, we join virtual meetings from our homes, the best content is the most genuine, and the strongest teams understand each other’s soft skills—not just their profitability.

Gillian:

I love that.

Michelle:

So how do we do that? How do we bring our humanity to work without reducing everyone to personality tests or putting them in boxes? How do we motivate people to do great work without manipulating them?

Today, we’re talking with Jordan Birnbaum about the role of empathy at work and how it fosters an excellent and safe environment.

Gillian, do you want to introduce Jordan?

Gillian:

Absolutely. While we’re setting the stage for this wonderful conversation, it’s worth reflecting on what’s changed since empathy became a common workplace term.

Not only has the work environment evolved, but so have the people in it. Self-awareness has grown, especially with younger generations who are more open and have higher expectations about how they’re treated. I just wanted to bring that perspective as we dive into this conversation with Jordan.

Michelle:

Jordan is an organizational psychologist and applied behavioral scientist. I’ll be honest—when I see those titles in someone’s LinkedIn bio, my first instinct is to avoid them. I picture someone analyzing me, and I feel like I need a tinfoil hat!

But that’s not the case with Jordan. He brings his knowledge with heart. He trains organizations to pay attention to each other and to the world, using that awareness to approach work more human-centered.

There’s no psychoanalysis here—just his kindness, which is better than coolness (to steal your phrase, Jordan). We’re so glad you’re here today.

Gillian:

Yes, we really are. Thank you for being here.

Jordan:

Thank you both so much for having me. I’m such a fan of what you’re doing and putting out into the world, so it’s an honor to be part of it.

I’ve also been thinking a lot about my 20-year-old self lately—what he would think of my life now. I feel like that intro would’ve made him really happy.

Gillian:

I think about my 20-year-old self a lot, especially when diving into these topics. It’s such a formative time, especially early in a career. I love that you pointed that out.

Let’s dive into your background a bit more. Michelle painted a beautiful picture, but let’s hear your story in your own words.

Jordan:

Well, there’s a lot to cover—I’ve been around for a while now! One thing I’ve realized about myself is that I’ve spent the last 30 years trying to find myself, largely through my work experiences.

When I was 20, I had a very different idea of who I was and what I wanted. My core values haven’t changed, but how I envisioned my future was very different from where I’ve ended up.

I’ve gone through a lot of pivots and reinventions. Sometimes they weren’t the smartest moves, but they were always courageous. I went for it, so I’ll never wonder what if.

Gillian:

I love that. That’s great. Let’s start with a little icebreaker. What’s your favorite interview question, and what does it tell you about someone?

Jordan:

This might not be surprising, given the posters behind me, but my favorite question is: Tell me about the first concert you ever went to where you chose the concert—not one your parents took you to.

I’m not trying to learn anything specific from their answer; I’m trying to connect with them.

I approach interviews—and really all conversations now—by seeking connection first. A wonderful coach I had, Jason Jarrett, taught me this line: Connect before you establish confidence in every conversation you have. People don’t care about your confidence until they care about you.

Gillian:

That’s so good. And it makes the conversation more enjoyable for everyone.

Jordan:

It makes it more human.

Gillian:

Yeah, absolutely. That’s great. I love that. Michelle, what about you?

Michelle:

Oh, my favorite interview question is asking for a specific story about the best boss they ever worked with. I love stories—hearing how someone tells a story and whether they can draw me in. Plus, I enjoy hearing how people talk about someone they admire.

I think giving people the chance to gush about someone they like is so revealing. It shows what they really value. That’s my favorite.

Gillian:

That’s a really good one. I’m definitely going to steal that.

Jordan:

That’s a great question. Through the lens of empathy, when you ask someone to talk about something that makes them happy, it puts them in a fantastic energy. It sets them up to bring their best selves from that point on. So it actually accomplishes a lot.

Gillian:

Yeah. My go-to question is, What was the last thing you read? It’s not the most strategic question, but I’m hoping they’ll be honest and tell me something real about themselves instead of giving me the answer they think I want to hear.

This ties back to my 20-year-old self because, back then, my answer would have been a version of one of those Harvard Business Review books.

Jordan:

Right, and now you’re like, I wish I was half as polished as that sounded back then.

Gillian:

Exactly. Now, my answer would be something like, Oh, I read a puff piece in The New York Times about trad wives. That’s what I want to hear from people—their real answer.

We’re not who we are at work 24/7. I want to work with people who break that barrier right out of the gate. Like you said, Jordan, connection makes working together much easier, especially when working remotely.

Let’s dive in. Jordan, what’s your working definition of empathy?

Jordan:

Empathy is the ability to understand and react to what other people are thinking or feeling. It’s different from sympathy, which is just feeling bad for someone.

For example, if someone loses a pet and I’ve never had one, I can sympathize—I can feel bad for them—but I might not understand what they’re truly going through. That’s sympathy.

But if I’ve experienced the loss of a pet, I can empathize. I don’t just feel bad; I understand their world is rocked, and it will take time for them to find joy again.

There’s a story I share about this. When I lost one of my pets, I was devastated. Someone said to me, You knew this would happen when you adopted your pet, and you did it anyway because you wanted to give them the best life.

That was the most comforting thing anyone said to me. It was the only thing that made me feel better because that person truly understood what I was going through and what I needed to hear. That’s empathy. It had a profound impact on me.

Gillian:

Absolutely. Michelle, you were going to ask something?

Michelle:

Yes. I want to go back to your definition of empathy. Does it shift when we talk about empathy in a work context? Or maybe the definition stays the same, but does the way we think about or apply empathy at work change?

Jordan:

Great question. I think the concept of empathy shifts slightly in a work context. Sometimes, in professional settings, people prioritize strategy over humanity.

There’s this idea that kindness might be mistaken for weakness, which can scare people chasing status. So, strategically speaking, empathy can be incredibly powerful.

I’ll paraphrase a quote from Ender’s Game. I never read the book, but in the movie, it opens with something like: To defeat my enemy, I must first understand him. However, once I understand him, I no longer want to defeat him.

That’s profound.

Strategically, how can you be an effective salesperson if you don’t understand the person you’re pitching to? How can you manage effectively, market effectively, or design products effectively if you don’t understand what the people you’re building for are experiencing? Empathy lets you know what to solve for.

Jordan:

To me, empathy is a requirement for being an effective human being. You’re just not going to get very far if you don’t understand what others are going through. When it comes to the workplace, that’s where I’d start when trying to make empathy appealing.

You can either be a bull in a china shop, breaking things all the time, or you can be a cat in a china shop—agile and adaptive. To be the cat, you need to understand what people are going through.

That said, once you decide you want to be empathetic, the biggest obstacle is often your own narcissism. And let’s face it, we’re all narcissists to some degree—it’s part of the human condition. There’s no shame in it, but we need to recognize it. Of course, we see the world exclusively through our own perspective, and of course, we overvalue ourselves.

The key is honesty. You don’t need to beat yourself up about being self-focused; just acknowledge it. To be empathetic, you have to get outside of yourself. If your thoughts are consumed by your own needs, interests, and emotional reactions, there’s no room to understand what anyone else is going through.

This is something we develop over time. In your 20s, for example, you often lack the life experience and discipline to truly understand others’ perspectives. There are exceptions, of course, but for most people, it’s hard to achieve empathy at that stage.

The ability to step outside yourself is the most important factor in becoming empathetic. And for those who struggle with it, therapy can be a straightforward path to get there.

Gillian:

Yeah, I love that. Let’s talk a bit more about who brings empathy into the workplace. It sounds like something you’re either born with or trained to have. But at what stage in your career is it appropriate to wear it on your sleeve?

Most articles about empathy in the workplace focus on leadership. But I’d love to explore who gets to channel empathy, embody it, and whether there are any rules around it. Let’s dive into that.

Jordan:

I’ll go back to my earlier statement about the perception of kindness as weakness. In my mind, true kindness is looking out for someone else’s well-being without expecting anything in return. That’s never a sign of weakness.

When it comes to empathy, it’s for everyone—not just leaders. It’s essential not only at work but in life. Understanding what others are going through brings incredible emotional and practical benefits.

For example, there’s something in social science called the “idiosyncratic rater effect,” which shows that more than 60% of feedback reflects the person providing it rather than the recipient. So, when you receive feedback, you learn more about the person giving it than about yourself.

Some people hear this and think, “Great, I can just ignore feedback.” But no, the point is that feedback gives you a clue about what matters to the other person. Listening to it with an open mind—not defensively—makes life easier and helps you engage more effectively.

Empathy not only improves your interactions with others but also gives you a more realistic understanding of the world. For example, realizing that your paranoia might just be narcissism is oddly comforting—it reminds you that you’re not the center of everyone’s thoughts.

Gillian:

I love this. It’s such a healthy framework for dealing with workplace spiraling, especially when we assume everything is about us. And it highlights that empathy isn’t always spoken; it’s felt.

Empathy as a tool doesn’t always mean taking action or sharing it outwardly. Sometimes it’s about grounding yourself, building confidence in your role, and gaining clarity in your interactions.

Jordan:

Exactly. Take something as simple as your boss not responding to an email. It’s easy to feel disrespected or insignificant, but if you step back and consider what your boss might be going through, you realize it’s likely not about you.

This perspective helps you avoid taking things personally and lets you focus on what matters.

Gillian:

That’s such a relevant example, especially in the context of remote work. Empathy feels even more critical when so much communication is through written words.

How do you see empathy as a leadership trait in remote working environments? Does it fit, and how can leaders channel it effectively?

Jordan:

You’re absolutely right—remote work makes empathy even more important. But there’s another issue complicating things: how we select leaders in the first place.

In most organizations, people are promoted based on accomplishments rather than their ability to lead. The skills that get you into leadership positions often aren’t the same skills you need to succeed as a leader.

Research suggests that only about three out of ten people promoted into leadership roles naturally have the attributes to be effective leaders—qualities like empathy and understanding.

Jordan:

A lot of people hired into leadership roles don’t have the patience for what they see as “unnecessary distractions,” like accounting for human emotions or helping someone feel better. As a result, we often find ourselves with leaders who not only lack empathy but may actively dislike it.

I think part of the solution lies in reconsidering how we approach leadership. There’s a distinction between leading work and leading people, and that’s where much of my future work will focus—trying to develop effective solutions.

Gillian:

Jordan, you do a lot of public speaking and workshops with leaders. It probably only takes one strong insight to spark an “aha” moment about empathy and how to tap into it, especially for those who don’t naturally lean that way.

Have you had moments in your sessions where you’ve shared a learning or a nugget of wisdom that really resonated and made an impact?

Jordan:

The first time I said this, it came out of nowhere, but now I use it in almost every session: When we improve as leaders, the people on our teams are nicer to their kids.

That usually lands very powerfully. It helps leaders realize the ripple effect of their behavior, and it gives them a sense of purpose and accomplishment. It’s a way to connect emotionally with them, and it sticks.

Another thing I do is acknowledge the incredible pressure leaders face. I’ll say something like, Your job isn’t just about hitting your numbers. You’re responsible for strategy—both external and internal—politics, execution, and engagement. Engagement is the hardest to get right, the least likely to succeed, and often the least rewarded in terms of promotion. No wonder it feels impossible.

Leaders appreciate hearing that, and it opens them up to what I’m saying. Then I’ll point out that most leadership training assumes every team member is a perfect angel who just needs the right approach. That’s B.S. Some team members are difficult, and managing them is one of the least pleasant but most critical parts of the job.

I empathize with how hard their roles are and emphasize that investing time in the psychology of their teams ultimately reduces the time spent on politics and execution. When their teams perform well, they can focus on strategy—what they likely enjoy most. This approach builds credibility and makes them more receptive to the idea that empathy isn’t just nice to have—it’s essential.

Michelle:

We’ve talked a lot about the need for leaders to have empathy, both for their teams and each other. But what about “empathy up”? Can employees without managerial roles use empathy effectively with their leaders?

Jordan:

Absolutely. The more you understand what your leader is experiencing, the better you’ll know what they value, what they want to hear, and what they find annoying or distracting. Start by imagining what your leader is going through and use that to think strategically about how best to engage with them.

Often, the answer is simply not to bother them unnecessarily. Most leaders want you to hit your metrics and keep things running smoothly. Once you understand that, it’s easier to choose your moments wisely and avoid spending goodwill on trivial matters.

But empathy isn’t just about strategizing—it’s also about protecting your own emotional state. If your leader doesn’t have the time or energy to focus on you, it’s not necessarily their fault. Understanding this can help you manage your expectations and emotions more effectively.

Michelle:

I love that. But it makes me wonder: does empathy have limits? If I’m practicing empathy in a toxic environment, how far can it take me? Where’s the boundary, and what do I do when I reach it?

Jordan:

That’s such an important question. Empathy should never compromise your boundaries. For example, you might understand that someone’s behavior stems from personal pain or challenges, but that doesn’t mean you have to accept it in your life. You can empathize with someone and still decide they have no place in your world.

In toxic work environments, it’s rare—but not impossible—for one person to spark positive change. Toxicity usually comes from the top, and if leadership is creating or tolerating harm, it’s tough to fix. My advice is not to wait until it becomes unbearable. If you’re in a toxic environment, start looking for a way out now.

Gillian:

At Aspects, we’re focused on keeping teams happy and energized—that’s the purpose of the technology we build. When speaking with large organizations, you’ve mentioned how empathy starts at the top.

When a company recognizes a serious problem with employee satisfaction, energy, or happiness—and it’s affecting their bottom line—how big of an undertaking is it to turn things around?

Gillian:

Where do they start? Even though you say it starts at the top, does it really start there when making a change? Let’s dive into that a little deeper.

Jordan:

It’s interesting. I think organizational culture starts at the top of the organization, but it also starts at the top of each team. In reality, organizational culture is more of a team-by-team phenomenon than we often admit.

While the CEO is important, your manager has a much more direct impact on your day-to-day experience at work. What your manager values, how they communicate, the empathy they show—or don’t show—all play a massive role. Whether they believe people deserve recognition just for doing their job, for example, can shape the entire team dynamic.

It’s rare to encounter a struggling leader who isn’t open to hearing about different approaches. One of the most impactful things a leader can do is sit down with their team and say, “I know I need to improve. I’m going to try, and I need your help to hold me accountable.” That vulnerability and commitment to growth resonate deeply.

Sometimes, leaders don’t even realize the impact their actions—or lack thereof—have on their teams. Helping them develop empathy for their team’s experience can open the door to discussing specific behavioral changes. That’s why effective training and development must first win over their hearts and then provide clear, actionable steps. It’s not enough to make them want to show empathy; they need concrete guidance on how to do it.

Gillian:

That made me think of Dr. Becky, the parenting psychologist.

Michelle:

I love Dr. Becky! She’s my hero.

Gillian:

She’s amazing. She gives parents scripts to use with their kids, especially toddlers. Sometimes it’s overwhelming—I’m like, What was I supposed to say again? But Jordan, you just gave us a great example of what leaders can say to be more empathetic.

Do you have any other scripts or talking points up your sleeve? Something for leaders to use with their teams—or for team members to use with their managers?

Jordan:

For leaders, one of the most powerful things they can do is have one-on-one conversations with their team members. Ask them what matters most to them, then follow up to show that you remember and care.

My favorite leadership theory is called Self-Determination Theory. It states that when leaders provide three key things, their teams perform at their best: autonomy, mastery, and connection.

• Autonomy means allowing team members to determine how to accomplish their goals without micromanagement.
• Mastery means giving them opportunities to demonstrate their skills and contribute meaningfully.
• Connection means fostering a sense of belonging with their colleagues, clients, and customers.

If a leader wants to overhaul their leadership style, focusing on these three principles is a great place to start.

Gillian:

I love that. It’s so helpful.

Jordan:

For leaders, understanding your team members and what matters to them helps improve communication, reduces emotional defensiveness, and makes you better at everything—from engaging clients to designing effective products or campaigns.

Gillian:

What advice would you give to both leaders and team members? Let’s say it’s a regular workday—Thursday at 2 p.m. What’s something they can do in the next five minutes to practice greater empathy?

Jordan:

For leaders, here’s a five-minute exercise:

1. Write down the names of everyone who reports to you.
2. Next to each name, write what you think matters most to them—the one thing that, if provided, would be most meaningful to them.
3. Then, meet with each person one-on-one and say, “I did this exercise, and here’s what I thought. But I want to hear from you—what matters most to you?”

The act of reflecting on your team members forces you to think about them differently, and checking in with them shows that you care. This simple exercise can significantly improve team morale almost overnight.

For team members, try a similar exercise with your colleagues. Reflect on what they might be experiencing and how you can either be the best possible teammate for them or better manage your reactions to them.

Gillian:

Getting to know your colleagues better and making their workdays smoother makes such a difference. Michelle, do you have anything else before we wrap up?

Michelle:

No, but I love this conversation. It’s so important to explore empathy from both perspectives, and those five-minute tips are so practical.

Gillian:

Jordan, thank you so much. And to everyone listening to Future Works, don’t forget to subscribe. We’ll see you in the next conversation!

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